Re: Follow up stress / stressors. No 2

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: I did follow most of your last posting. I am going to try to review some of the literature, but need some dates, maybe publication information. I might be able to find it by Authors name alone, but Journal names would help. : By the way. The eccentric load of my first A2 workout took nearly 2 weeks to fully recover, as predicted by a great deal of research. I have been able to complete a number of A2 runs since then, with minimal discomfort. Thanks... : Also a question on race strategy...my LBP is 170 at 1 degree incline on treadmill. So, the question is...1/2 marathon race plan. After slow warm-up of 10-15 minutes. Start race and build speed and HR to : LBP-5? Or can I afford to go at LBP, assuming I plan to finish in approx. 1:20? Of course, if the race comes together, and I am able to maintain my tested speed at LBP, I will likely finish faster, and thus perhaps be able to minimize duration of HR drift. Extra info., Course is flat. : : : Getting in the swing of it ( Stage 1 ) : : As usual , if we use a term we may not understand the same meaning. : : Capillarisation : : : Depending on what research you got, we see 3 different ( most common meanings ) : : 1. Opening of " resting " capillaries under specific stressors. : : 2. Vasoconstriction and vasodilatation of already existing capillaries. (collateral systems )including lenghtening of an already existing capillary net or additional building of anastomosen. : : 3. Effective building and increase of number and volume of capillaries. : : ( Pfister / Vanotti u. Singeisen/ Petren /Sjoestrand / Tittel et all. To name a few. : : Another big research group from Germany ( Schoen et all ) were and are still working on more and better info on this particular subject. : : So the question is now : : : Where do we find the highest capillary numbers / cm 2 , or the highest mitochondria density. ? : : Once we have this answer and agree for the moment on the stand of the knowledge , we can ask , how this athletes or other creatures got to this stage. : : a) Saltin and Schoen again just to name 2 of them did in depth studies on this subjects. : : Athletes with the highest number of STF fibers had also the highest capillary network and numbers /cm 2 , as well as the highest mitochondria density. : : Certainly the german long distance and endurance school focuses on slow long distance, and if we are talking slow , than that's real slow. : : But !!! not just for 4 - 5 weeks , but as Cris mentioned in an other way or Frank . : : LSD is slow , long for long at the moment but also in terms of time training. ( over years ) : : So we come back to Duncan. : : Progress : Yes , if you take 2 athletes on theoretical the same level ( in everything ) : : , you may see a better improvement over 3 - 4 weeks on the athlete , who is pushing harder. But remember functional and structural. : : So we are back on this famous adaptation. : : Besides the intensity of a stressor we also have to look at the duration. A lot of reserach ( because of time restriction , to end your PHD perhaps ) is very limited on time 6 /8/10 weeks. : : The end result after this period may not automatically be the end result of this particular stressors. ( we will see later ) : : Banister / and certainly Schumann did some intriging research on reactions of mitochondria under extreme intensities. : : Schuman's research got an additional boost from Sahlin's research . : : Sahlin could show , that under extreme intensity athletes were producing pH values around 6.4 to 6.0 . The Lactate values in the capillary blood was up to 20 mmol and higher. In fact the muscle lactate was actually 2 - 3 x higher than the blood lactate. : : With this values the athletes reached concentration in an area with lysosomal activity ( which means cell structures were distroyed ) : : Mr. Schumann actually was able to shoot some impressive pictures ( electromicroscopic ) : : Now what : : : Is lactate good or bad ? : : Well we just could say : it is very bad. But stop , there is still that but . : : As we learned , a healty body , if he does not get killed , but survives may perhaps be able to react upon a stress like this. : : So when Schuman followed up his findings , he could see after 4 days of the destuction some first " healing reactions , after 8 days there was a clear sign of winning the battle and after 14 days the situation was perfect under control. : : Hey Andrew if you followed the story till to this point , how are your sore legs after your eccentric stress. ( Stressor was longer steps ) ? : : Now there may be the but. : : Question : What would happen , if this athlete would have pushed the same training again after 2 / 4 / 6 days as an example ? : : Now the next question is , was this hard stress worth while for my athlete in the actual stage of his athletic development or the specific time of the year. : : And what was the goal of this stress , and do I now the result of the stress , . : : Do I know the specific stressor ( limiting stucture in the muscle at the time of the stress. : : Was this particular stress actuall increasing capillarisation. : : Remember stage one , or as the name better explains the " struggle respond. : : As Andrew pointed out , an initial "anaerobic " stress. ( with the big question of how good the word anaerobic is ) will be answered with an ( anaerobic ) respond. Or better , if I stress the body metabolically , we may get a metabolic answer. : : Now we are in deep trouble . We are moving in the field of hormonal reactions , feedbacks and feebacks on the feedback , enzyme production and so on. : : Now you know , why I like the word struggle respond. The body is struggling and how about our knowledge . : : We may be able to state , that the initial struggle respond on a high intensity exercises is a " surviving" respond. ( try to buffer as good as we can buffer , try to metabolize as good we can metabolize ) and so on. This surviving respond will be followed up with some causalty ( dead body structure. And now again the question is , how I handle this situation. : : My open guess would be with adaequat rest. : : Now Cris is back in the discussion with : I have to know and measure if possible , whether the rest was long and good enough so I can ad a new stress on an at least recovered system. ( better would be a supercompensated body ) : : Too early training and a to extreme stresses may fail to repair and regroup your army and the battle is lost , often faster than we think. : : Now as bigger your army ( Capillary numbers , mitochondria density ) as more likely you can survive some battle in a row. : : So it again comes down to proper basic build up of structures. : : Again one of them are the capillaries. : : How : : : Hollmann and Hettinger see the main stressor for increase of capillary in 2 possible reasons. : : Main factor . a) physical and mechanical forces based on prolonged ( duration ) exercising on relative low intensity. : : 2. Certain neuronal stressors. : : Hudlizka and Brown stimulated FTF fibers with impulses known to be the stressors on STF fibers. : : After 14 days they saw a clear respond with an increase of capillarisation. And this actually before any metabolic signs of STF fiber activity. : : Based on this they claim , that long and regular staedy stimmulation on this activity pattern will help to activate and increase the STF fibers and the possible activation of FTF x and FTFa fibers to simular type of STF type of work. : : There is still the question of actually changing the fiber typ from FTF to STF or just the properties. ? : : Mader backs them up with claiming , that if you train daily over hours ( 4 - 6 ) you should not exceed intensities over 50 - 60 % of VO2 max. : : Now we still have the problem of the % calculation. So the Idea of Systroem 1990) : : based on Kernspintomography , where they could follow in the muscle the metabolic processes seems to be a kind of better. : : They showed , that below 66 % of the individual VO2 max the pH threshold was reached. Under this they could not see some dramatically metabolic stress responds. But they still had the physical and mechanical respond. : : Independant of this group Mc Murry showed in his study on " exercises and endogenous opiates , that intensities below lactate respond would not show up with beta endorphine respond. There are a few exercise-related phenomena that were connected to levels of endogenous opiates. The most obvious one is PAIN perception, because the main pharmacologic effect of opiates lies in the modulation of pain. ( May create a lot more questions ) : : Now what's about struggle respond here. : : Saltin claims in his basic research ( 1988) that the additional capillarization is an adaptation of the body to move additional substrate like FFA to and "waste product " away from the muscle. : : Some would claim lactate is a waste product, other would better say , it is something which is at the wrong place at the wrong time. : : Remember the carrier protein MCT1 MCT 4. : : As better the road network ( capillarization ) as easier for the transportation . STF fiber owners seem to have a much better way to deal with agents , which stand arround at the wrong place at the wrong time. : : Last but not least to keep the stressor ( Mitochondria and myth ) going. we go back to Dudley and Dan. : : O. Andersen in his attempt to stress upon us a higher intensity training was pushing one part of Dudley's research just under the table. So did actually Dudley himself. : : When they stressed their rats they could see : Summary : : : Intensities above 80 % of VO2 max would improve for sure the cytochrome activity in FTF b fibers. : : FTF x ( or in the study 9FTF a ) fibers only improved up to 80 % intensity. Anything above did not show additional improvement. : : STF fibers surprisingly improved up to 90 - 95 % , but above this they actually got worse. : : The author writes . We did not had any explanation for this situation and as usual they have to put down , Further research is needed. Which is for sure always true. : : Now may question is , what was perhaps the reason. Perhaps we find the answer anywere above on this page. : : Saltin stressed his " athletes " to the limit as well and they were interested again in the capillarisation. : : The findings were: : : If they pushed the limit the FTF fibers would finally quit , but not all together ( because of the pHh ), so if the athlete kept pushing ( on a slightly lower intensity ) so he could sustain the workout , they could see an " increase " in capillarization. Actually an opening of existing "shortcuts " to muscles besides them. : : In fact they could see an additional recruitment of existing motor units which were mainly now STF fibers. : : Their explanation was , that the STF fibers would not additionally add to the already stressed pH value and would help to remove lactate better. : : So we did not had a real new building of capillaries , but one of the other "definitions' od this term. : : Now I have to go but I am sure we opened a cane of wurm.

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